Same granddad?

Everything you need to know about the breeding of kunekune Pigs.
Pandora
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Same granddad?

Post by Pandora » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:15 pm

I'm hoping to buy a boar to breed with my 3 gilts, but the one I like shares the same GRANDDAD as my girls. Is this okay? The rest of their bloodlines are different, just fathers father on both sides is the same boar.
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wendy scu
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Post by wendy scu » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:07 pm

personally i'd avoid it,

Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:47 am

Oh right... well thats confused me, as the last but one newsletter had an article by Andy Case advocatiing close breeding, and I had hoped just one ancester, 2 generations back would be okay? :(
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wendy scu
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Post by wendy scu » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:17 pm

i had also put what i hoped was the 'downside' of line/close breeding as i personally am not in favour of it - i can only give you my own opinion, its not set in stone, if you ask andy case he will say its fine :?

Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:13 pm

As the gene pool is so small for purebred Kune's, isn't there almost always going to be a common ancestor somewhere not too far back?

I have hobby bred pedigree dogs and cats for 30 years, and have studied the geneology quite closely in those species, but I'm new to pigs and want to get this right.

The recent BBC1 programme on pedigree dogs is something I have campaigned about for 15 years, so I understand how easily genetic faults can be set and wouldn't want to contirbute to that in Kune's.

My gilts have come from correct parents, and if the boar shares equally good conformation and breeding, am I not starting with better foundation progeny prospects than a complete outcross?

I didn't realise that one shared relative two generations back, would be considered 'close' breeding, or even linebreeding, as there are no other common relatives in their pedigrees.
Never test the depth of the water with both feet!

Pandora
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Oops, it's mothers father, and fathers father.........

Post by Pandora » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:36 pm

Okay I am getting a bit confused now, but looking at the details again, the only 'line' is to the boars TODDINGTON TRISH mothers father, who was LONG ASH ANDREW 114.
He is also our KEREOPA gilts FATHERS FATHER. Does that make a difference? I understand the gilts take the mothers bloodlines, therefore the boar I am considering would take his fathers TE WHANGI bloodlines, hence the difference. Please can someone clarify this? Thank you. :?
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simon
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Post by simon » Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:24 pm

Pandora

Just get a different boar.
If you do breed relatives together you need to be prepared to cull week offspring. You just need to consider if you are prepared to do this....

Gary
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Post by Gary » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:49 pm

Hitting a piglet with a spade or swinging it by the legs to kill it is neither traditional or humane !!
To advocate such a practice is even worse.


In fact it is an act that causes unecessary suffering and is illegal.

If a breeder is prepared to accept ?150 - ?200 for a piglet, as we all are, then he/she should at least have the moral decency to pay ?10 and seek a vets' assistance to humanely destroy.

Absolutey unbelievable !!

Gary..

simon
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Post by simon » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:54 pm

Gary wrote:Absolutey unbelievable !!
Gary, I think you took me a bit too literally...I was trying to make the point that culling is necessary if you go in for line breeding.

Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:44 pm

Whoah there folks! :shock: Blimey... sorry I spoke ~ wish I was dead! I'm new to this forum, having posted just a couple of wanted threads for an entire boar... don't think I'll be continuing to use it if a polite enquiry sparks a slanging match! :cry:

Gary, I'm with you 100%. I may be new to 'livestock' (although we don't see our pet Kune's like that), but in 30 years of breeding companion animals, NO expense is spared when it comes to their welfare and care. Anyone who feels differently, shouldn't be doing it. :x

Simon... pleeeeez tell me your remarks were 'tongue in cheek', or simply meant to put me off? If so, why? And before anyone else gets on their soap box... I challenge a large proportion of you to guarantee there are no common ancestors at all in your pedigree breeding stock with such a small gene pool! How can my proposition be called 'line' breeding? We are talking about ONE pig, TWO generations back ~ my 3 gilts MATERNAL grandsire, who is also the prospective boars PATERNAL grandsire.

It was also considered 'traditional' to mutilate puppies with tail docking and ear cropping for no good reason not so long ago, a practice which I found equally abhorant, so while I am completely aware of the responsibilities of a breeder... I won't be using your 'traditional' methods Simon, should culling become necessary. Deformity/abnormality is something faced by everyone who has any great experience of breeding, and if you truly advocate this method in this day and age ~ shame on you!

Thank you for your 'advise'... NOT! :roll:

For the record ~ those of you who read Andy Case's article in the last but one newsletter, to breed father to daughter etc. and to "breed close and cull hard" for best quality pigs... left me completely dismayed, and is what I would have called unacceptable inbreeding! Yet he's supposed to be the British authority on Kune's ~ a breed show judge and published author. :?:
Never test the depth of the water with both feet!

simon
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Post by simon » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:05 pm

Pandora wrote:simply meant to put me off
Indeed I was trying to put you off.
I am quite passionate that kunes should be breeding with as distant a partner as possible...and like you say this is difficult enough.

Pandora
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Nuff sed...

Post by Pandora » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:11 pm

That's good to know Simon. Please rest assured I have the utmost integrity where the moral ethics of animal welfare is concerned.

IF, I go ahead with this boar, and there is ever the slightest indication that any possible piglets are not right in any way, then I will keep back those piglets, and 'boar swap' or sell him on.

It's just that I have had wanted notices plastered everywhere I can think of for ages, for a young un-castrated boar... not a single sausage, (bad choice of words!!) :lol:

Anyone else got any then, with a better matched pedigree? Not as far afield as New Zealand would be good?! :wink:
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Jane
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Post by Jane » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:56 am

I have noticed some registered intact boars for sale on the website 'www.preloved.co.uk'. Hope this helps. Jane

Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:39 pm

Thanks Jane.
I've been checking the classifieds constantly, but they all seem to be the other side of the country, and apart from not yet having the appropriate livestock trailer for transporting an older boar, we have nobody to look after all our other animals for such a long return trip.
The boar I am considering is also located a very long distance away, but they travel near us fairly regularly and are happy to deliver him for a petrol contribution, so it seemed the perfect arrangement.
Never test the depth of the water with both feet!

nick butler
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Post by nick butler » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:47 pm

hi there joining in with the discussion i also watched the program and was disgusted to see the disregard for the dogs in question, i wouldnt mate any of the same bloodline, much as humans dont keep it in the family, (well perhaps some, not me ) but i do have 3 small boars for sale in the right section if it helps you pandora :D

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