Another integration issue

General chat about kunekune pigs
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snowric
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Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:31 pm

Hello everyone, this is my first post and somewhat linked the the imemdiate preceding one,

My wife and I own two brother castrated kunekunes called Snout and Crackling. Snout has been very ill, having developed severe cystitis and a blocked urethra caused by bladder stones. He has had to stay at the RVC at Potters bar for 3 weeks to recover after surgery and is rather lucky to still be here. This is the first time the two pigs have ever been apart and behaviour was always very good - no fighting, the odd nip and shove over a bit of food but nothing else.

On reintroduction (we had hoped that they would just carry on as uaul, how optimistic) they have immediately started fighting, standining on hind legs, biting ears etc. It seems that Crackling, who remained at home has rather assumed that he is now senior pig and owns the yard.

We have read the advice here in the forum and we have separated them where they can see each other through the fence - the fighting is still going on and they now have separate sleeping quarters. This morning (we are only 12 hours into tre-introduction) they greeted and fed together, even swapping food bowls and water troughs and then, after about 10 muinutes were up on their hind legs and bashing each other again. bleeding ears etc.

They remain very friendly towards us (on the whole pigs are fab !) - it is almost as if each is saying 'it's not me its him'

So we have separated them again and will keep trying them together on neutral ground.

How long does the charade have to go on for. They are similar weight, although Snout is bigger he lost some weight whilst ill. We are concerned that, in absecne of size, they will do some damage before the pecking order is re-established.

What's viewed as best practice ?

Yours worriedly

Richard Snow

PS my wife writes an occasional blog - google 'pigs in London' if any of you are interested details of the bladder stones incident are there

wendy scu
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by wendy scu » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:22 pm

Hi Richard, having spoken to you today am most interested in your bladder stones story. i had my vet out to rasp the horses teeth today just after we had spoken and he was equally fascinated to here about the operation as it was he who tended my Rocky with the stones.
if you do receive a report on it i would love to read it.
good luck with the pig integration - i'm sure it will soon settle,
best wishes
Wendy

DeniseDulson
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by DeniseDulson » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:44 pm

Hi Richard - it's taken ours almost 3 weeks to get "friendly" and sleeping together in the same ark - we followed the advice from everyone in the previous post and it worked - but we had to be very patient. Still a bit of chasing now and again but no nipping and generally all getting on a lot better. Good luck!

Denise.

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:26 pm

Wendy, thank you for taking the call. It was reassuring to know that all was 'normal' and we have followed your advice. lets see what the next few days bring !

On Snout the summary was.

1. presented with dysuria (pain in passing urine) although he could spurt a little. Partial prolapsing and hunching while trying to wee. off food, in distress.

2. ultrasound scan showed distended bladder but no stones

3. MRI scan showed sediment in ureters, bladder and two stones in urethra but both on the bladder side of his urinary sphincter. so a partial blockage but not a complete one. apparently a consequence of his underdeveloped penis due to his 8 week castration.

all this done with snouty under sedation to avoid movement and biting

4. told prognosis not good and treatment risky and expensive. als concerns over post op care and handling, we roll dice and proceed.

5. 48 hours in snouty has operation. balloon catheter inserted into bladder via abdomen wall to one side of penis. attempted to catheterise his penis but, as was too tight to enter but it would appear that they dislodged the stones (see below)

6 bladder was seen to be in poor condition, thoroughly cleaned out. two big stones removed. for testing

7. snout sent off to his hospital stall, recovers groggily, catheter remains in for 10 days. intially snout urinates through his catheter only, gradually he is able to urinate a little through his penis.

8. after this the next gambe is taken, removal of the catheter, rescan - have the stones moved/ gone - have the damaged his urethra and caused scarring/ blockage ? if so, snouty is off to his maker.

9. scan done . Stones have GONE ! the vet team put an mri opaque fluid into the bladder to check the urethra and it seems to be open and flowing. lots of prayers

10. snouty recovers from yet another anaesthetic ! by now his sides and ears are shaved but the bandages are gone - will he wee ?

11. yes he does but with much pain - cystitis has set in and is aggressively treated with antibiotics (1 week course) and pain relief.

12. three days later situation improves and snout is cleared to come home - hooray - well done to the RCVS vet team

13. he will always strain a little as his bladder is now attached to his abdomen wall

14. the stones are calcite or calcium carbonate. not clear why they have formed - usually only found in guinea pigs ! more common is struvite and calcium oxalate.

15. advised to feed him less compound foods and more fruit n veg. plus police his drinking carefully.

now, had the stones been still in there it may have been possible to do a thing called laser lithotripsy to him which involves blasting the stones with a laser inside the urethra breaking them into tiny ones or ultrasound lithotripsy whcih they do to horses whcih also get urethral/bladder stones. we are glad he didnt have to go through anything else.

let's hope he and his brother start getting on and that he now has a quiet and vet free life !


richard

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:40 pm

Wendy

in this document is a pretty good discussion on the procedure used on snouty from a us vet clinic with expertise on pot bellies. several other vet procedures are outlined too, including dosing guidelines on antibiotics etc.

www.futurevows.com/doc/Porcine/Pigs%20Manual.doc

I did a lot of research into snout's condition and it became increasingly clear how much we (humans) owe to pigs as they have such similar body chemistry and anatomy to humans. The procedures being used to deal with stones have been used in humans for many years. you will be unsurprised to learn that they used laboratory pigs as human models to test their safety and effectiveness. wherever you stand on the use of animals to further medical knowledge and develop life saving treatments, it must be good that, thanks to vets in the usa and here in the UK that these procedures are now also available for our pigs too.

i very much hope that none of you have to go through the same three weeks that snouty has been through.

richard

wendy scu
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by wendy scu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:17 pm

Thanks Richard and i hope by now things are settling down ?

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:29 am

Yes they have ! Snouty is back in senior role and Cracky is grumpy but accepting.

We put them in adjacent pens and there was lots of facing off and snarling and biting and bending of wirefences. Toni would then re-introduce them morning and evening with lots of ear, flank and tail biting....and lots of grappling whilst on hind legs. Most initiated by the smaller pig, Crackling.

They finally had a big barney on Monday evening when Snout seemed to have reached the limit of his patience and he really stepped up the aggression for a short period of time, Cracky squealed a lot and backed down. That night we put them in the same pen together and they slept seperately but by yesterday we see them lying side by side in their straw and they have refocused efforts on rooting and, of course, eating and fatly lying around.

We have resumed normal sleeping too !

Thank you for all the advice. Snouty's fur is starting to regrow too.

Richard

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:39 am

This is what a Pig looks like in Private Hospoital:

Image
http://pigsinlondon.blog.com/files/2012 ... 5-1142.jpg

R :-)

wendy scu
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by wendy scu » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:53 pm

what a beautiful picture :)

cloudybay
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by cloudybay » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:35 pm

Regarding the stones issue.

Ram lambs get them alot if the feed that they have doesn't contain Amonia Chloride. This breaks the calcified calcium down so they can pass urine much more easily.
I tend to give the piglets/Boar pigs a hand full of sheep feed with their own feed on a regular basis.

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:12 pm

A year on.

I just wanted to report that Snoutie and Crackling are well and there has been no obvious recurrence of blockage in Snout's since his operation nor of pig fighting !

My wife and I remain very happy kunekune owners. There is little in life more enjoyable than scratching your pig in its favourite spot and having it flumpf gently onto you for a good hug and scratch.

I have a photo but I cant seem to post photos on this forum.



Richard Snow

snowric
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by snowric » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:05 pm

and again

Image
Snouty about to flumpf by Snowy999, on Flickr

biddydog
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by biddydog » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:58 am

How old is Snouty as he looks huge? My two are 10 months old a fraction of the size. Lovely picture by the way.
Like you, my husband and I can't believe how wonderful keeping KK pigs is- an utter joy.

wendy scu
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Re: Another integration issue

Post by wendy scu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:41 pm

lovely picture and Snouty actually looks quite a small kunekune to me - a 10 month old would be tiny still as they take about 2 years to reach full grown,
thanks for the update on the stones - very encouraging :)

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